22b3 by Device w/ Crag - 342

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In this episode, we take a journey back to the 80s to explore Device's only album, '22B3', the choice of this week's guest co-host, our antipodean based pal, Crag!

We delve into the album's rich synth-pop-rock sound and discuss why it remains an underrated gem. The key member of this act is the overlooked, yet all time great pop rock songwriter Holly Knight. She was the mastermind behind many iconic hits from the likes of Tina Turner, Bonnie Tyler, Heart and penned songs for Kiss, Bon Jovi, Cheap Trick, Meatloaf and so many more. On 22b3, she takes centre stage and we use this episode to investigate her influential yet often overlooked contributions.

As we go through each track, we highlight the distinctive 80s production techniques, unique sounds, and memorable melodies. Crag shares insights into the equipment used and provides some industry context, which makes for a fascinating deep dive into 80s music culture. From discussing the album's standout tracks like 'Hanging on a Heart Attack' to exploring the various musical influences and collaborations, this episode is packed with intriguing details and anecdotes.

We also connect the album to wider music histories and trends, giving listeners a thorough understanding of its place in music lore. As always, we wrap up with our Nexus, this time linking Device to Debbie McGee in a surprisingly twisted route through music and pop culture history. If you're a fan of 80s music, keen on unsung musical heroes, or simply love a good musical anecdote, this episode is a nostalgic treat you won't want to miss.

00:00 Introduction and Greetings

01:26 Listener Suggestions and Album Selection

02:56 Patreon and Membership Perks

05:25 Political Commentary and Americana

09:29 Album Discussion: Device - 22B3

16:49 Holly Knight's Career and Contributions

38:13 Paul Engeman and the Band's Background

47:37 Introduction to Marauder and George Tukto

47:52 Technical Credits and Chart Performance

48:33 Musical Equipment and 80s Sound

50:08 Diving into the Tracks

50:43 Track Analysis: Hanging on a Heart Attack

54:43 Track Analysis: Who Says

57:05 Track Analysis: Pieces on the Ground

58:50 Track Analysis: Tough and Tender

01:01:24 Track Analysis: When Love is Good

01:03:39 Track Analysis: Didn't I Read You Right

01:06:04 Track Analysis: Fall Apart, Golden Heart

01:09:10 Track Analysis: I've Got No Room for Your Love

01:11:42 Track Analysis: Who's on the Line

01:14:11 Track Analysis: Sandstone, Cobwebs and Dust

01:16:44 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

01:24:21 Nexus Segment: From Device to Debbie McGee

01:32:20 Closing Remarks and Upcoming Guests

Transcript

Mark Fraser: [00:00:00] Hey folks.

You I am Mark, joined by Chris.

Chris: Hi, I was still here.

Mark Fraser: He's still here. We're not in the same location. We've decided to take a separation for a little

Chris: bit. We're in our respective bunkers.

Mark Fraser: [00:01:00] And we're joined by our good friend from the other side of the world, who's 12 hours in the future. 11 hours in the future.

Crag Carrick: Yes. Uh, also 11 hours in the bin because I've been up all night, uh, because I screwed up my, uh, sleeping patterns. So, uh, I've been up doing this very last minute while doing a bunch of other things. But yeah, this is Craig. Um, nice to be on Unsung again. This was a suggestion in the Unsung Triple E group.

And I thought, yeah, this album I really love, and it's kind of one and done, and it would be a bit easier than going into Bob Dylan's back catalogue or something like that.

Chris: Yeah, so we opened it to the floor of the listeners, especially the AAA group, just to suggest an album for this week and just to give us a, just a wee selection that we can keep in our back pockets for future.

And, uh, We got a lot of good suggestions, didn't we, Mark? I think we've got about 16 or something. 16, we've got 16, [00:02:00] yeah. Well, 15 now. Yeah, 15 now, but, uh Plenty in the tank. We've been doing an awful lot of, like, 90s stuff recently, and so there was a sense of, like, right, let's just Try and do one that wasn't 90s.

I think this tells us something about our listenership, to be honest, but I, uh, Craig mercifully suggested one that wasn't 90s. It was 80s. And I think that kind of influenced us to go for it. As he says, it's one and done. It's a one album band. So that's sort of fairly low maintenance, although There was a hell of a lot of other stuff around the band members to listen to, which was not a chore, I will add, but, uh, yeah, it wasn't like we just had one record to listen to, or at least I didn't.

Yeah, I went into loads and loads of shit. Um, before we get there,

Mark Fraser: uh, we'll, we'll do the admin. crags are immediately on brands by talking about the truck, the unsung to play Facebook group, um, product placement, very well done. We didn't tell him we didn't tell him we say that either. He just, just did it himself.

So I, the, when we talk about that, we're talking about, uh, kind [00:03:00] of what you get as a perk for being an elite and elite, basically be part of the elite. That's what we're all thinking about these days. Part of the elite, uh, on our page, which is patreon. com for us on song pod. If you go to that, you can join our, uh, there's two tiers, you've got our four quid a month tier, or whatever the equivalent is in your currency.

Craig, what's the equivalent in, uh, Aussie dollars?

Crag Carrick: Uh, about twenty four dollars.

Chris: Fuck off. Have

Crag Carrick: you been sarcastic? No, no. I'm, I'm not. But yeah, it's, uh What's, what's going on there? Yeah, four dollars equivalent. I dunno. Four pounds equivalent. Uh, I don't know, probably about 16 bucks or something like that.

It's about 14 a pint, uh, in general, here. So, always Oh, but that means that your pints are

Chris: cheaper than theirs, though. I use, I use the pint system. Uh huh. A pint, a pint here, easily 6 now, Mark. Easily. Easily, um Sorry, um

Mark Fraser: Basically, the economy in your paints based economy, we're saying [00:04:00] is buys a pint.

Essentially, if you give us for quite a month, you can buy us a pint and then you can get access to Facebook group and you can also get access episodes a few days early and you can also get access to bonus episodes as and when they become available. In the past, some of the kind of special feature episodes we've done have actually started out there.

So like your sound is a pound, you're on song and also You now are going to be getting more and more, uh, influence on what you can actually, what we actually cover on the show as well, because this exercise to get this album to us has actually been really fun, and as Chris was saying, it's thrown up quite a lot of 90s albums, that's true, but it's also thrown up a lot of good things as well.

But if you want to be a bit more flash for your cash, which is probably gonna cost like 300 Aussie dollars. Elon Musk. What is the next tier?

Chris: Musk

Crag Carrick: tier.

Chris: Yeah, we basically we send you an album once a month that we buy from bands or independent labels directly. We sources from all over the [00:05:00] world as well as a lot of stuff from the UK, Scotland.

But yeah, the bands get a better share of that money. The labels get a share of the money. We get a share of the money and you are effectively invested in yourself because as well as supporting your favorite podcast, you are also sending yourself a little gift once a month that just turns up and you're like, Oh, thanks past me.

And that's, that's kind of how it works. So by doing that, you get a wee surprise for yourself. It's not a lot of money and it keeps all this rolling. Um, can I just say to, to tie contemporary subjects and the podcast and the admin We obviously we did about 20 minutes at the start of our episode last week about politics.

Mark, you'll dig this, just to, before we get into the meat of this episode, to continue the theme of Americana, I finally got round to watching all six episodes of Mr. McMahon. Ah, okay. I finished it, finished it yesterday, binged it in a couple of days, really First of all, just a very entertaining watch.

Some of the episodes are better than the others. And obviously, a lot of stuff left out actually as well. Well, we'll get to that in two seconds then. But obviously there's [00:06:00] a big bit in it about, well not a big bit, but there's a chunk about Trump and they do reflect on the parallels, you know, the, the way that Donald Trump has basically, you know, WWE ified political world, you know.

I mean, it really has though, you know, it has. It's turned into caricatures and the whole kind of kayfabe thing, I think, that we've spoken about that, how I think there's an element of that, especially Republican politics right now, you know, pretending that you don't believe shit and that whole kind of.

People say not meaning things all that the duality of it and all I thought that was interesting, but I thought the most interesting parallel that wasn't really reflected on in that, you know, that, you know, weird thing about Vince McMahon that comes across in that documentary in particular is how transactionally is in the way that people do.

Mad shit to him, like, Hogan, Sable to some extent, uh, various people that have taken him to court, Eric Bischoff and all that kind of stuff, all the things that he got up to back in the day, people who have, like, literally tried to put him out of business, but then he sort of brings them back in. Yeah, man.

Because, well, [00:07:00] you know, You know, it's good for business and very comments. But also, I mean, there's clearly a power element to that. You know, I can bring you back in because ultimately you need the money from me. There's an element of that. But see that transactionality. I just think that's something that's really there with trump because there's, I mean, there's a lot of journalists like guys like bob woodward and stuff who's now interviewed him like fucking 20 times despite trump knowing that every time bob woodward Interviews him.

There's some fucking huge story that comes crashing into the news, but some mad fucking thing that he's done or said, but then he still goes back and interviews him because there is that transactional. Well, I need the publicity and therefore I'll let you interview me again. I really, I really took that away from it as well.

That, that is something I think people really don't get about him. I don't get it about him, but at least I'm starting to sort of try and force my brain to adapt to that sense of how these guys just seem to be able to get past personal beefs when it's in their financial interests.

Mark Fraser: Yeah, I mean, Finnie Mackey is one of the most famous people for that.

Like you said, it's all [00:08:00] about the business. It's all about the business. And wrestling as a business, I guess it is. It is the most capitalist thing in the world. Wrestling. You know what I mean? And, uh, it's just all about the 90, but he's an artistist, man, so that is totally a bit of power as well.

Crag Carrick: I was so surprised that, uh, Vince McMahon did that, because it, the, the documentary, I, I, I binged it as well, Chris, and, uh, and they didn't really paint him in a good light at all.

Like as a human being, as a businessman, as a, as anything really, and he was sitting there just taking it,

Mark Fraser: which is part of the shtick I guess, but He's not a good person, like, um, when you were talking about Trump, there are a few lessons, Jonathan was speaking about that for a while as well, about how it's, how it's becoming, like K fabe for like Trump and stuff for that.

Um, I mean, the fact that it comes up in documentary, I think it's pretty cool. Um, cause I've never really, apart for you, I've never really heard anybody else talk about outside wrestling circles. You know what I mean?

Chris: Yeah. I think they really need to start to try and get their head around that because that is, I mean, certainly in America, wrestling has had such a huge cultural impact.[00:09:00]

It's bigger than it's ever been. It's bigger than it's ever been. I know. I know. And all the changes in the human brain that are necessary to get into it, you know what I mean? For better or worse, all the adaptations you have. To make to your thinking to enjoy it or to try and understand it. You know, those can be appropriated for other purposes and I really think they are.

Anyway, you know something else that reminds me of Wrestling Madre, the 1980s No Beyond Thunderdome. Mad Max Dre, two men into a One Man, Neve. Yeah. So, uh, how about we, uh, turn our attentions to the album CC B, no, two, three, FK, H eight. The band device. Are you having a stroke, Chris? TK

Crag Carrick: 421. TK 421. So it's either 2 2 B 2 B 3.

Chris: Or 22 B 3. Yeah. 2 2 B 3 by the band device.[00:10:00]

And we immediately had to disambiguate this because clearly, I initially set out listening to David Raymond's new metal industrial rock side project device.

Which is, wow. Really fucking

Crag Carrick: bad. Yeah, I never heard of him. So David Draymond obviously is, uh, from fame. Uh, disturbed. He's got a face. I couldn't, I couldn't get tired of punching that face. Oh,

Chris: no,

Crag Carrick: I know.

Chris: I know. It's the boys from one of the boys from Richard. Robert Patrick. I always forget what you know.

Leonardo [00:11:00] Terminator Terminator. Exactly. But I it's not very good. It's it's not so different, though, from what david dreamin was doing that I'm like, why did you do this? It was a point completely. I mean, stone sour is at least remarkably different to Slipknot. I don't really get where David Dreamin was going with it.

But anyway, yeah, it is not that device. If you look up that device, immediately switch that device off. You're not helping anybody out by boosting that up the algorithm. Uh, this is device from the mid eighties. 1986 is when this album came out. Um, and I should say it's really hard to get a lot of information on this band specifically.

Uh, there's not a lot of hard and fast data on them, simply that. They existed in the mid 80s. The first thing they sort of did is around about 85. We'll get to that, which was to do with Mad Max 3, hence the name drop. Um, it was a trio, really, uh, Holly Knight, who played bass, keys, keytar, vocals, drum [00:12:00] programming, wrote the tunes, uh, Paul Engerman.

on vocals who is a vocalist that you'll have heard before we'll get to that as well and a guy called gene black on guitar and backing vocals and honestly as far as device the band are concerned there's really not a shitload more to add to really do anything of note we have to start looking at the people that make up that band but uh before we dig into those members i think craig why device

Crag Carrick: i was doing an 80s band i was singing in a and an 80s band here during COVID.

And uh, the guy, the guitar player, kind of songwriter, kind of turned me on to this album. And I was like, this is everything I like, you know, and it was produced amazingly. Mike Chapman, who's like, you can just go for hours talking about all the stuff he's done. And I don't even know how, This even came into the hands of, of, of my mate in, in the band.

And, uh, and I think he picked it up in a, what they call an op shop here, like a charity [00:13:00] shop. And, uh, yeah, yeah, just loved it. And then when I kind of started looking into it and seeing like who the members were, And I was like, oh, holy, holy hell. And, uh, the band were only around for like a year and then disbanded.

And I was like, why wasn't this band the biggest thing in it? Cause it just sounds amazing to me. Uh, I'm waiting to hear what your thoughts on the album are, uh, dreading it to be honest. But, uh, but, uh, yeah, it just, uh, tickles my pickles or. Something like

Mark Fraser: I

Chris: mean, it is very you and I mean that in the nicest way.

Like I remember like streets of Siam posters that you used to do when you were doing club nights and stuff like it's very in keeping with that kind of vibe 80s but not premier division 80s. It's like Championship, maybe even the top end of the first division, this

Crag Carrick: is good. It's like it's a holly night.

It's been in [00:14:00] like Frank's alone territory and all that kind of stuff and uh, upper echelons. But I think this album just stands as a little, uh, it's very much a little time capsule. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Fraser: That's

Crag Carrick: Mark.

Mark Fraser: Can I give you

Chris: a CD on the

Mark Fraser: records, my CD about this record?

Chris: I go for it.

Mark Fraser: So I don't know if you know, right, but see on Discogs Holly Knight has got 853 credits to her name of songs she's written, right?

Chris: Yeah.

Mark Fraser: Um, that's not how many songs she's written, but that's how many people have covered their music. I think she's maybe only written about 40 odd songs, um, or that have been sold, shall we say? Cause she's written for the likes of Tina Turner and Heart and Meatloaf and Christ. I think it's a bit more funny.

Cause I know that

Chris: like Tina Turner, she's done nine for her alone. So there's, there's a few bands where she's done multiple tunes for

Mark Fraser: her. I mean, in Discogs, she says music by and there's only 32, which would, which would tell me she's only done about 32 songs. No, that's not. Um, but I don't know. I don't know if exactly for sure.

She's 853 anyway. That's definitely for sure. Um, cause [00:15:00] that'd be insane. Yeah. So she was kind of hot property at this time. Do you know what I mean? I think that she was writing probably quite a lot and these were the songs she was keeping for herself and maybe the ones that weren't quite commercial enough to be like or maybe were written for a different voice entirely other than Tina Turner or Bonnie Tyler or whatever and the idea being that I'm going to assemble a group just to kind of put these songs out into the world and kind of show off.

My both songwriting ability and playing ability because she's not the feature, feature. Well, she's not the feature singer on the record, but she plays everything apart from fucking drums and key and guitar on it. Do you know what I mean? So like she, she programmed the drums in it. Yep. So she's fucking done everything on this record pretty much.

So it's very much an auteur thing. So I think it's clearly very much her vision, which is probably something she'd Didn't really get, you know, because a lot of our songs, she's got, she's got a co writing credit on like the best. She's like one of four writers on that song, for example. Now, but that's not that, that in itself isn't accurate.

Yeah. But I mean, if you think about it though, like this is a whole, this is her own vision though, right? This is our own music without any interference, pretty [00:16:00] much. It's just like her own thing. So my theory is that this is the, we think for her, you know what I mean? Now we think you say shit that I want to be in a band.

I want to have my own power for just a moment.

Chris: I've got another theory. But we'll, uh, unpack that theory, uh, in a systematic way as we go through some of the back catalogue, uh, of her writing and the members.

Crag Carrick: Just, just on Mark's point there, like, uh, the reason it was one and done and only, uh, like a band for a year is because she wanted to be the front person.

But Paul Engerman coming in and being, being like he is and kind of overshadowed her and that probably niffed her a bit. Yeah, that's my, my conspiracy theory on it.

Chris: Well, we'll dig a wee bit into the backstory of certainly two of the members of the band. One of the members of the band, there's not really a lot to find out, but um, Holly Knight, We'll start with her because that's clearly the main event.

Uh, she was born in New York City to Jewish immigrant parents from [00:17:00] Eastern Europe. Uh, she was trained on classical piano from four years old. Uh, when she was growing up, kind of getting into her own music, she got really into Queen, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin. Uh, she was, I think she was quite into the periphery of the punk movement as well.

She was a member of a band called Spider in New York City, which I think they originally formed around about 1977.

She had a big break in 1980 playing keys on Kisses. Unmasked album, albeit she was uncredited on that.

She wasn't actually apparently a huge fan of [00:18:00] Kiss, but she did, by working with them, get really into their sheer sense of spectacle. Supposedly she was at, uh, I think it was some kind of studio or something, and she was basically just sitting in the studio having just done something. You know what it was?

Actually, it was the boy from Spider, uh, whose name completely escapes me, but we'll come back to me in a minute. Um, Anton Fogg, he played drums on Kiss's seventh album, uh, Dynasty, but it was credited to Peter Criss. Peter Criss wasn't good enough to play drums on that album, so they got Anton to play it and then didn't actually credit him on it.

And so mad. Yeah. So she's in the studio. I suspect that the fact that Anton knew the band was something to do why she was there or something. And they said to come and play keys? So she went and she said, they kind of played about the song and she just started sort of playing some stuff, recorded that.

And that was meant to be it. And then when she was leaving, Jean was like, do you need to be anywhere? And she was like, no, not really. And Jean was like, do I just do something on all the songs? Cause we'd really liked what you just did. That was great. And she was like, Fair enough. And apparently that was the [00:19:00] first album she recorded was Kiss.

That was before she did her own album with Spider, because their album came out in 1980 as well. Um, but yeah, she was also dating Paul Stanley for a while at one point too. She left New York City in 1981 on the advice of Mike Chapman, who was from Dream, Dreamland, Dreamland Records, I think it was. As you said, Craig, he'd written for people like Blondie.

He wrote the track My Sharona for He wrote with The Suite, he wrote Suzy Cuatro songs, um, and so she moved to Los Angeles on his advice to go and work as a songwriter. Just in terms of Spider, they did two albums with Holly before they changed their name to Shanghai for a final record that they did without her after she'd moved to LA.

She was actually replaced for that last album by somebody called Bo Hill on The Keys, who would also work with Alice Cooper, Winger, Warrant, Ratt. So basically a who's who of like 1980s hair rock.[00:20:00]

Eh, Spider actually had some minor hits. They had a track called New Romance, brackets, It's a Mystery, which broke into the US Top 40. I think it was 39 or something like that. Eh, and one of their tunes better be good to me also ended up going to number five when Tina Turner did

Music: it in 1984.

Chris: So she was signed. to EMI Publishing, [00:21:00] which opened a lot of doors to her, clearly, uh, that track Better Be Good To Me was her song and had basically been reworked for a Tina Turner rendition in collaboration with Mike Chapman. There's a guy called Nicky Chin, also credited, but she's actually strongly disputed the fact that he's on the credit for that.

Now, this is maybe where it comes into things like The Best and multiple writers being on that. Nicky Chin and Mike Chapman had. A sort of writing contract whereby they both had to be equally credited and she was like Nicky Chin wasn't even in the USA at the time that we wrote that song but because of Mike's agreement with Nicky he had to be credited on that but he had absolutely nothing to do with that song yet he managed to get an equal writing credit on it and it drives her up the wall that that was that was the arrangement.

Crag Carrick: Oh, the glory days, eh?

Chris: Totally. She also wrote Love is a Battlefield, which ended up clearly becoming famous via Pat Benatar.[00:22:00]

She actually, now you mentioned she wrote the best. as in Simply the Best for Folk Learny Show.

She said that she knew, more than with the best, Simply the Best, that Love is a Battlefield would be the potential hit. She wasn't entirely sure about Simply the Best, or The Best, sorry, whether that was going to take. Um, she wasn't keen on, The version of Love is a Battlefield that Pat Benatar produced, she wanted something much more romantic and slower.

There's actually a version of her doing that song that came out on her self titled album in

Music: [00:23:00] 1988. She acknowledges that

Chris: Yeah, Pap Benatar's version went to number five, but she said in podcasts that she wonders if a slower version might not have gone to number one. Respectfully, having heard both, I disagree.

Uh, Love's a Battlefield is a dance floor tune because of the BPM, because of the tempo of it and the thump of

Music: it.

Chris: Her version of it, she wanted something much softer and groovier and slower. She's made comments about it being like a red wine song and it just doesn't work. will come into my theory of [00:24:00] device really so just stick a pen in that this whole idea but she felt the song should sound this way and that's how this song would sound the best and actually i think she was wrong you know she still wrote the song it's a great bit of writing but i don't think her interpretation of it was right and by the way she also wrote invincible for pat benatar which is actually another great song as well

yeah other works she wrote The Warrior for Scandal. D'you know that song?

Mm hmm.[00:25:00]

Chris: It's a total fuckin 80's banger, The Warrior. It went to number 7 in the USA. Went to number 1 in Canada in 1984. It's the opening music for that TV series, Glow. She's got a book called I Am The Warrior. Yeah, she does. Aye. In 1985, she collaborated with Tim Capello, writing One Of The Living for Mad Max 3 Beyond Thunderdome.

What a song, man. I love it. It's

Music: not as good as the other team. I

Mark Fraser: mean, that's a fuckin religious song.

Chris: Yeah, the oily, muscly sax boy from from lost boys. And as you see that featured Tina Turner, she did the vocals for that song. And I think that song, as I said, was maybe technically devices debut. Nepal wasn't on it.

It was just Jean and Holly and they both did backing [00:26:00] vocals as well. So Jean did guitar and she did most of the other stuff in it or a lot of the other stuff in it. Um, in 1988, she was voted into Rolling Stone's best songwriters list alongside Phil Collins, Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel and Paul Simon.

And I think it's telling, you know, when we're talking about device, I don't want to show my hand too much in terms of how much this album merits being included in the unsung canon. But I think something that's very true is that Holly is nowhere near as well known as Phil Collins, Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel, Paul Simon.

Admittedly, she's not as many, you know, absolute outrageous big hits as that, but she's really, really under acknowledged, certainly outwith the industry. In terms of the best, um, the best was initially released by Bonnie Tyler, which I didn't even realize when I listened to Bonnie Tyler's version. It's a lot softer in the chorus.

It's not It's not as rocky, basically.[00:27:00]

But, aye, it was obviously made more famous by Tina Turner's performance. Eh, both The Best and Love Is A Battlefield both won the respective Grammys for Best Female Rock Vocals that year. Eh Tina Turner had wanted more melody to come into her songwriting and had pushed for the collaboration with Holly.

She'd actually asked Holly, though, to go back and write a bridge for the new version of the best because it didn't have that the first time around. And then I think it was Mark that added the key change at the end of it as well. And by the way, apparently the best was originally written. for the singer Paul Young, you know Paul Young?

I can't even

Crag Carrick: imagine Paul Young doing that. Living in the love of the common people. Can't imagine him having the, uh, the balls to do that. So Mike Chapman did it in Australia as well. [00:28:00] Cause he's, he's, uh, an Australian guy, Mike Chapman. and there's a version with a guy called jimmy barnes who's from just down the road from you from cow cabins and he did it with tina turner

and uh yeah he produced that It's Tina Turner and Jimmy Burns from Cold Chisel, who I talked about before on that song. And, uh, and it's, it's kind of hard to distinguish, like, the voices between them, because both of them are just like,

Chris: By the way, I should, I should correct myself, because as you say, it's Mike Chapman. I said Mark Chapman, and that's a pure John Lennon. Yeah, Mark David Chapman. The assassin. Sorry Mike Chapman. But yeah, so she wrote it for Paul Young and she says that she did that because she was smitten by him and wanted to get his attention.

So she [00:29:00] specifically wrote a tune to try and get him to like it and release it, but clearly not. It went to Bonnie Tyler first. It's a really big tune for royalties. It's a song that a lot of people have heard. It's a song that continues to this day as an ironic anthem for fans of Rangers football club.

Um, so she's the one that they pay every time that gets played. Well, I say pay. On which note, she also went on to write for Rod Stewart, so she was playing both sides in the Glasgow Derby.

Crag Carrick: That's quite a funny one, that's one we were talking about on the, on the chat the other day, because Rod Stewart, as everyone knows, is like, is he Celtic's number one supporter or something like that?

Chris: I'm sure he thinks he is. He's, he's a, he's a fucking massive Celtic fan, aye. Absolutely. I told you I met him in the toilet at Celtic Park. Oh did you? Where did you check out his boobie? There were three urinals and I was standing taking a piss at the middle urinal and on [00:30:00] my left was Rod Stewart and on my right was a Lisbon Lion.

Um, one of the people that lifted the European Cup. And, uh, basically as I was about to leave the toilet, we kind of went to leave at the same time and Rod Stewart said, Oh, it was no beauty before. He said beauty before age. And then he went first and I was like, you fucking geezer. I remember there was

Crag Carrick: this anecdote I heard from his band when he was, uh, big in the eighties.

And, uh, when he used to come out in all these, uh, makeup and flimsy clothing and all that kind of thing, they would go on calling. And I don't know if you know about Avon wherever you're listening in the world, but it's like a door to door kind of makeup sales. I, they will, they will. It's enough of a

Chris: culture.

Um, so Some other artists that Holly's written for, uh, Aerosmith.[00:31:00]

Bon Jovi, Hart, Cheap Trick. Lita Ford, Holland Oates, Kiss and Paul Stanley separately, Ozzy Osbourne, Meatloaf, Suzy Cuatro, Chaka Khan, Dusty Springfield, Kim Wilde, and somewhat more recently, The Donnas. Remember The Donnas? She wrote for them. She wrote for O TEP, the new metal band. Wow, I didn't know that. And get this, she wrote a track called Overrated, Everything Is, for Less Than Jake.

I'm excited, so is the

Music: way to decide. Nice. How is, how is

Crag Carrick: this happening? How is Less Than Jake going like? You'd assume a band like O Tep or Less Than Jake are [00:32:00] just writing their own tunes. It must be a label thing.

Chris: That's mental. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it will be a label thing. The Donnas is more believable because you could tell they probably started writing their own songs and then the label got involved and was like, we want to make you the next big thing, girls.

So that's where she got roped in.

Mark Fraser: It's worth noting that the Meatloaf song she wrote was released in 2006 on the Bata Highway Hill 3. Did she not do it? I think

Chris: she did two, did she not?

Mark Fraser: The first one, Monstro, is kind of an intro. To a live. Ah, right. Okay. It's, it's, the song's fine. I listened to it earlier on.

It's fine. I'm a runaway train

Music: on a broken track. I'm the charm that you can't turn back this time. That's right. I got away with it all and I'm still alive. Jim Stein

Mark Fraser: was not really involved with that record. It was Desmond Child who produced it. The meatloaf episode is coming. I promise you. Oh my god.

Marcus Stone. I'm kidding. I am done. I don't think it'll be a good [00:33:00] fun time. No, I'm honest.

Chris: So she's been in a lot of movies or music's been in a lot of movies, uh, including some notable ones, a weird science, Thelma and Louise, the secret of my success. It was in Dallas buyers club. It was a hot tub time machine, cocaine bear.

Uh, she's been in TV shows, uh, a number of episodes of Miami vice, Oprah, family guy, Simpsons, 30 rocks, South Park, Schitt's Creek. So I mean, She's got a large portfolio of work. She probably makes a fairly healthy income from royalties and those kind of payments. I think clearly many of the uses that I'm listing kind of relate to the best.

You know, when a song is that big, it's used so widely that that just becomes a massive source of income for someone even if. They might not have the biggest share in the world. Um, that, by the way, is a song that was also played after Joe Biden's inauguration in 2021. An episode of American history that, you know, contrary to popular recollection, went extremely smoothly and [00:34:00] presumably everything over there since then has been absolutely fine and completely normal and not at all terrifying.

It was also played by Donald Trump a few times. Was it? Fucking hell. Anyway, uh, Holly Knight, as Craig said, has an autobiography called I Am the Warrior from 2023. If you're curious, she did a whole media kind of tour of that as well, which is where I had a lot of these different facts, you know, during podcasts and things.

Tina Turner actually did the foreword to that book just shortly before she died. Holly still writes, but has said that as a rock writer and she considers herself like a pop rock writer, she doesn't really get as many opportunities given current trends in music. There was some interesting stuff that came up in the book.

The podcasts that I watched about around about the time of the book release regarding getting credit. So she was on a podcast with a guy called Michael Brandvold and she was asked this really good question by the host about how it feels to be somewhat anonymous in terms of how the public perceives those hits.

You know, those big, big songs, you know, for example, Pat Benatar, um, and she said, [00:35:00] quote, quite honestly, it sucks, but that she's had to learn to live with it. She gets especially annoyed by the artists who seem to go out of their way to perpetuate the myth of them writing their tunes, sort of like The old references to KISS and I think she actually gets on really well with KISS and she said that especially Jean was, despite being a total bunch of misogynist pigs, which she fully admits, she was like they were very supportive to her when she was in and around the band and he spent a lot of energy getting people noticed.

It was like it was Gene Simmons for KISS that fucking first spotted Van Halen, for example, you know, he was really good at bringing through new acts and she feels that she really benefited from knowing those guys as well. Um, but I think KISS are certainly a band that are. said to have tried to minimise the role of other writers and their music to try and play into the brand a bit.

And she equally criticises the practice of artists inserting themselves into writing credits based on minimal input. We've talked about this before, the write a word, get a third thing that Beyonce is very well known for, where they kind of nurture their reputation as [00:36:00] creatives because being a performer is no longer seen as being a valid enough role.

She talks about how, you know, like the great American songbook, you know, all the Sinatra's and the Baccarat's and all that kind of stuff. Even Elvis, like they frequently regularly announced who wrote the songs before performing them. You know, this is a little song by blah, blah, blah, or who they collaborated with on a track, things like that.

She was like, that used to be kind of decorum for that kind of thing. She does use the analogy. You know, if you're a great actor, you don't also have to be the screenwriter. And I think she feels that. There's nothing shameful about being a great performer if you're given good material, which is quite an interesting perspective on it.

And one last bit of data point here in her book, she singles out that she particularly wishes she had written the James Bond theme.

Don't we all?

Mark Fraser: It's a wonder she wasn't asked to write a James Bond song.

Crag Carrick: She gets it, doesn't she? She's too busy

Mark Fraser: getting out. Especially because working with Pat Benatar, you'd think she would be able to work in the same orbit, you know, as [00:37:00] those that were writing for Bond back then.

Chris: You know, I've not checked, maybe she was involved in a kind of lesser Bond tune, you know, somewhere in the franchise.

I think, I think we would have found that out, mate.

Mark Fraser: Ah, she's not old enough. In our extensive research.

Crag Carrick: She's not old enough, I don't think, to be involved with any of that. Sam Smith? Sam Smith. Yeah, I guess so. I guess her only

Mark Fraser: opportunity would have been the Timothy Dalton bonds towards the late 80s would have been the only real opportunity she had and by then the franchise was kind of fucked anyway.

So

Chris: I mean, I think by the time they were doing beauty and stuff like that, she could easily have been involved in that. It's something that either, but no, she just, I don't know that she has, but as I say, I do feel we Talked about it on the Bond episodes that there were a lot of tracks pitched for Bond that never got picked.

And so there's every possibility that she's been involved in a track that didn't make the cut. I will. I'll buy that conspiracy.

Crag Carrick: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I was, I was most surprised by, uh, Ragdoll, Aerosmith, a big song for me when I was like, when I was a kid. Uh, I can't really hear her in that at all. But I [00:38:00] guess that's maybe her skill, is being kind of behind the scenes.

Chris: Well, it's interesting you say that because now you're just helping me construct this little argument I'm going to make at the end of the podcast. So let's move on to Paul Ingeman. And Paul Ingeman was the voice of Device. First of all, this is the guy that sang Scarface, Push It To The Limit from the Scarface movie.

One of the most outrageous montages of all time to start with, like, the absolute most turbo fucking 80s montages. In fact, is there not also a Cartman montage from South Park? If South Park rip off this whole,

Crag Carrick: this whole style, like, like, that's, that's their stock in trade. I'm sure we'll talk [00:39:00] about that later on.

Chris: Absolutely, and Paul Engeman's tracks in particular seem to influence a lot of the DVDA South Park stuff. You remember their band DVDA that they used to put out a lot of pastiches with?

So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's an absolutely on the nose 80s anthem. Um, it's more rocky than rocky. Uh, and that was, that was written by [00:40:00] Giorgio Moroder. Fucking Giorgio Moroder, um, and he also collaborated with Paul Engerman on a track called Reach Out, which was a number one hit in Germany and became the official anthem of the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics.

Reach

Music: Out! Reach Out!

Chris: You now And is an absolute Absolute howlin piece of shit. Craig, how bad is this tune?

Crag Carrick: It is pretty bad, but I do like the video. It's just like, it's like, uh, ads for like, Sunkist or something like that, or Sprite or something back in the day. It does, it sounds like that, yeah. Just people running really happily and doing sports.

Reach

Music: out, reach out for the metal Reach out, [00:41:00] reach out for the gold Come play with

Chris: Um, so, as Craig said, um, the Vice stopped being a thing in 1987, you know, ostensibly because they were too busy with other projects while he was doing loads and loads of writing. I don't know what the personal feelings were on the band in terms of the series about why they may have split, but Paul joined a project called Animotion and they did have a few small hits including their track called Obsession, which is probably best known for its wee Keyboard riff more than anything else.

Mark Fraser: That was co written with Holly Knight.

Chris: Oh, was

Mark Fraser: it? Yep. Well, there you go. It's been covered a lot. If you go into Discogs, A lot of those 800 odds, not, no, not a huge amount of them, but there's a [00:42:00] few which are definitely cover of that song.

Chris: That's, it's, it's a, the wee riff is really, really identifiable. Mm. Um, there's a track called Room to Move, which was taken from the Dan Arod from my Stepmother's, an alien.

That was a, that was a hit. I think that was their biggest hit, actually. It's a track by the way. That features incredibly, like an all timer prominent use of a thing called. Ork 2, like O R C H 2, which was a setting on a synth back then, and it's like an orchestral strike used by a lot of hip hop acts as well.

That track makes heavy fucking rinses it, in fact. Um, so, uh, Paul Ingerman, apparently after his music career went down, he ended up working for a chocolate company called The MX I corporation, which is a really disconcerting name for a chocolate company. [00:43:00] Um, and they ended up running a pyramid scheme and he was landed in court as a defendant because of that pyramid scheme.

Pyramids Toblerone's chocolate. There's a joke in there. Um, uh, also another data point. Paul Ingerman's sister is the widow of the late Larry King, the talk show host. The guy who also ended up with a show on RT of all places. But, uh, yeah, and, and, yeah, that's, that's me, that's, that's my, my backstory at the device.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, his dad was, uh, was a very prominent, uh, music manager, or pusher, or manager, or whatever you want to call it, who was responsible for signing the Beach Boys, and he played in a band called The Lettermen, who now have a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. So, yeah. He came from a very showbiz family. His sister sang for like Disney movies and stuff like that, and had a couple albums out as well.

But yeah.

Chris: That's the kind of Beach Boys

Crag Carrick: deep cut that only Vicky would have access to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting, [00:44:00] interesting family. So he's kind of born into it. And, uh, and he looks the part, I guess. The other guy in the band is, uh, Gene Black, who is kind of a session guy. I guess all these people are kind of session guys and that's why it was so short lived, but yeah, he's a session guy for

Chris: Joe Cocker, which is quite fun.

He's one of those unfortunate normies a bit like ourselves guys that doesn't have a blue, a blue name on Wikipedia. Just one of those guys. See when you see a band and everybody else has got a blue name apart from one guy and you're like, ah, pfft. Poor bastard, man. But yeah, we'll talk a wee bit about 22b3 by device.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, so, conspiracy theories. What do you think 22b3 or 22b3

Chris: means? I actually found a thing on a post. went some really deep dives on this, by the way. I went through all the YouTube comments. I went on to fucking like rate your music. Ended up on Amazon. Digging through like [00:45:00] resales of old vinyls and somebody had said that he, I don't know if he theorizing that it was related to the fact that it started as a duo and it became a trio because it was her and Jean and then they became her, Jean and Paul.

So it was two To become three.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, I could, I could buy that, I guess. Um, I listened to a podcast with Paul Engerman and, uh, someone asked him, like, what does that mean? And it's like, uh, Mike Chapman was, uh, just really stoned and, uh, and they just came out with that. And, uh, there's some, some theory that it's like a sale by date.

Or something like that on like a pot noodle or something. But uh, I don't know. 2 2, be free, I don't know. We can go into ballet dancing or something, I don't know.

Chris: We'll touch on that later on as well. Indeed, indeed, indeed. Nice foreshadowing. So, there is a so little out there about this [00:46:00] project, really. Um, all I know is that after about four years of just writing, Holly missed being in a proper band and performing as well.

As I said, she was very much, she very much saw herself as a rock writer and she liked bands. She's even lamented about contemporary music. You know, she's like some very good performers and writers there, but she, she misses bands and the energy of that and the performance of bands. So the record was recorded and produced by Mike Chapman.

It was also mixed by someone called George Took Toe. Mark, did you go down his Discogs hole? No, but I probably can right now if you want. Probably quite a lot. It was written largely by Mike and Holly Knight. As I understand it, Paul did not actually write on the record. He just sang what he was given.

Crag Carrick: Did you know, um, the demos, so how he got in touch with Marauder and all that is his sister was dating Marauder and then, uh, and then he, he got the chance to do the demos for [00:47:00] Marauder for things like the never ending story and danger zone and all that kind of thing.

Sorry. And the reason he got the, uh, the Scarface gig was. Um, Marauder asked Brian De Palma what version you like better. It was like some other singer, some Kenny Loggins or something like that and say, which one do you like best? And it was, uh, and it was the, uh, the Paul one. I don't think so. Brian

Chris: De Palma is a total cheese head then.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, yeah. But, um, but I can, I can hear Paul doing, uh, like never in a story and danger zone and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, but that's, that's essentially what he did. Uh, is he did demos, uh, for Marauder and so when Marauder had an idea and he wanted a cheeseball singer, you know, to come in and give it that, kind of, that sound, that's what he did and that was his, that was his gig.

Mark Fraser: Yeah. George Tukto has co produced records for Rod Stewart, it would appear, um, in the mid and late 80s, as well as people like Andy Taylor, [00:48:00] Baby Jane, the Choir Boys. Yeah, and that's just his production credit, so he's got a lot of technical credits. He's been an engineer on 127 records, so

Chris: That we know of, yeah.

Mark Fraser: Yeah,

Chris: that we know of. So, hanging on a heart attack is still the most obvious touchstone for people because that got to number 35 in the billboard charts in the States and became the kind of flagship for this record. The album itself only peaked to number 73. And that's more or less all I could really find out about it other than just diving through the tracks.

Uh, do you guys have any other data you want to throw into the mix here?

Crag Carrick: I don't know. You're a bit of a gearhead. Chris, do you want to talk about any of the, let's just be

Chris: clear that you're referring to musical equipment.

Crag Carrick: We're talking about LA and the 80s right now. We're talking about the 80s. But yeah, we're looking at.

You know, Holly Knight's obviously very accomplished and we talked about how the drums were programmed and Lindrum is, uh, is, uh, very prominent. The Roland, uh, [00:49:00] 808 and all that as well. The Simmons, uh, V drums, uh, and then the keys themselves, which are really distinctive as well. So you've got, there's a lot

Chris: of FM synthesis in this FM 80s sound.

Yeah.

Crag Carrick: Yeah,

Chris: DX7s, Jupiter 8s, um, I fucking love a DX7, man. Honestly, that is just one of the greatest fucking sounds known to man.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, I think, uh, what's the other podcast, uh, Justin Hawkins from Darkness? Uh, when I watched that, he's got a DX7 logo tattooed on his arm, I believe. I might, might be wrong about that, but I think he does have that.

Absolutely brilliant. But it's the Linn drum sound that's so prominent. on this album and in pretty much every other band who were playing at that time, especially those working with like Mike Chapman or Holly Knight. So

Chris: yeah, very cool. I have to say I do have one technical beef with this album in terms of the equipment that was used and we'll get to it as we're going through, but it recurs for me as well and really [00:50:00] doesn't But I'll, I'll, I'll find my way there via the songs themselves.

So we'll just get into that. Yeah, nice. Well, let's get into it. So hanging on a heart attack, start big.

Uh, by the, do you know there's an extended version of this as well? That's nearer six minutes. Wow. So yeah, this album really loves a fade

Crag Carrick: out.

But pretty much every song has a, has a proper fade out, uh, by like, you know, a good 30 seconds or something

Chris: like that. Yeah. It comes in big though, Paul's vocal is immediately the most 80s thing ever in this one. Uh,[00:51:00]

she's also got this sassy wee kind of counter punk vocal, it's a spoken word part which is a really different touch for that era, you know, early 80s stuff.

The chorus melody on this tune for me is a bit mild, you know, and it's one for the Wham or the Wet Wet Wet fans, and that crag is why I was like, no wonder he absolutely fucking loves this record.

I think she's a great writer at points, right? There's songs that she's done that I'm like, that's a great song, especially the more dynamic stuff. But sometimes the [00:52:00] chords that are the melodies that are gone for are just a bit like wishy washy and a very eighties way, you know, eighties pop way. But it's, it's, it's the eighties pop that doesn't chime with me as opposed to the stuff that does.

So the production's all there, the sounds all there and I want it to go into something major or minor or something with a wee bit of angles on it. And it kind of opts out and goes for something a bit.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, my least favorite part of this song, even though it's our biggest song in the opener, is that Holly Knight part that you're so cool, you're so tough, that kind of thing.

It's very kind of Hannah Montana or something like that. I just don't like it. I think his lead vocal is, uh, is, is really, really good. And I think the, uh, the keyboard sounds are, uh, excellent. I think it, it drives those high notes. Uh, but yeah, the, my, that's probably my least favorite part of the record is her little voiceover.

Which goes into my conspiracy of her, uh, being, uh, [00:53:00] overshadowed by the lead singer who's Giena Tlalde.

Mark Fraser: So this was a big single, like you said, Chris, so it comes, this is the first song on the record because of that. This is quite, it's like a mixture between 80s pop and yacht rock, you know? Yeah, and it's the yachtiness that I do.

Yeah, I'm going to talk about that in my conclusion as well, I guess, but um, I think the synth sounds are great, man. I really like his vocal on this song. It reminds me of Berlin, actually. His vocal room is quite a lot of Berlin, uh, but yeah, it's quite a, quite a decent hook. The guitar solo is weird though, because like it's, it's kind of quite tasteful and laid back sort of yacht rock guitars for the most part.

And then they do this every single song, they get like this wacky, outrageous, mega reverb, mega delay, fucking. He had a metal guitar solo,[00:54:00]

but in this song, it really stands out because it's really incongruous and you can actually hear it when they transition back after the guitar solo to the next part of the song. It sounds like a completely different song, like the way the production is, it just like switches. It's a bit strange and the energy of the song changes as a result of that.

It's the only time in the record where I feel as though the guitar solo is badly judged. I think for the most part it is well judged, whether you like that or not, it's obviously Yeah, I'm not a taste. Um, I think I quite dug this song overall, but it's, yeah, it's giving me mild, to be honest.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, it's always octaved chords into a solo.

Maybe that's to do with the nature of being a, like, a free piece, but yeah, it's kind of the

Chris: same trick. The second track, who says, second single from the album, second track, uh, peaked at number 79 this one.[00:55:00]

Maybe a better song for me. Um, I really like all this bass line in it. The chorus in this one lifts better. It actually lifts twice the chorus in this and I really like it when tunes do that. Um, there's also an arpeggiated guitar picking in the bridge that is fucking great. I just love that kind of picking.

Whether it's Fugazi or this, anybody doing that kind of rapid arpeggiated kind of muted picking stuff, it's just, it's, yeah, it's catting up for me.

Mark Fraser: My favourite thing about this is the, they do this occasionally. The guitar follows the keyboard melody.[00:56:00]

And I really like it when that happens. Um, it's not overused, which is good. And then in the, in the verses they kind of pop sound me like harmonics and like sort of whammy bar bits, which are very, very easy. And then it's got a really lovely counter melody guitar in the chorus as well. Um, the whole vibe of this song is very Lethal Weapon, or like the Hank Heathers of the 80s action film, you know?

Um, the backing vocals I think are really well judged again, um, but I think the vocal performance is better on the last song than this song, even if I did like this song more. It sounds more like Djeran Djeran this song, I think, than anything else.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, I would agree, uh, I love the vocal on this, and I love that breakdown you're talking about with the picking, the doo doo doo doo doo, that little bridge.

I think, yeah, I prefer this to the opening track, so. Why I didn't do better, I don't know. But, uh, yeah, great song. I think the vocal delivery is, uh, absolutely top notch and the little, uh, [00:57:00] frills and thrills or whatever you wanna call them that he does are, uh, world class.

Chris: Uh, so through the pattern, uh, the third track pieces on the ground, uh, was also the third single.

And this is where this reveal comes. I'm really not a big fan of that plonky Stratocaster tone. There's some really unusual chords and there's a really nice unorthodox use of harmonics throughout this tune.

But the tone that is used to deliver them. It doesn't fit for me. Uh, by the way, this [00:58:00] song has the lyric silent but deadly, which made me lol every time. Um, I like the, the call response of the word shattered and there's like these male replies and that come up in the left side of the stereo image. It's not a memorable tune though.

Um, it kind of sounds like a deep cut for Miami vice for me. Um, one of my favorites, I would say.

Crag Carrick: pieces on the ground of the album. Uh, it's in, it's in the top three, I would say. Gets a bit cheesy with the shattered, shattered, shattered bit, but uh, I like it.

Mark Fraser: It didn't really work for me. It was actually the female backing vocals in the verse that really, really annoyed me.

I didn't mind the chorus. Some of the guitar parts themselves are quite fun, but it's really long and you can actually feel that extra 57 seconds when it creeps over five minutes and keeps going, man. You do feel it.

Chris: So, Tough and Tender, the fourth one, surprisingly not the fourth single though.[00:59:00]

Mark Fraser: It's the best song on the record.

Chris: Anybody notice Rhythm is a Dancer, that intro?

Yeah, totally, yeah. It's Rhythm is a Dancer.

Chris: I really like the swinging 3 3 timing, yeah, it definitely lifts the record, the vocal has a darker vibe, and actually the lines of the vocal have a really nice kind of nursery rhyme repetition to them, they're really simple.

There's some fun electric [01:00:00] percussion, uh, albeit there's also some naff synths in that bridge.

Mark Fraser: Yeah, it's very disco y, I think. Especially the sounds, that Rhythm of the Dancer thing is a good note on that. It's got a great chorus, I love the dynamic changes between verses and chorus in this one. And there's some lovely arpeggiated keyboards going on as well, just before the break, before the guitar solo comes in, which I must say is a very classy guitar solo.

Crag Carrick: I liked it. Yeah, it's a nice little refresher, I think, [01:01:00] as far as the album goes. So we shot energy. Yeah, yeah. And looking at the track listing here, all the songs are like five minutes long, if not more, you know, up to six minutes on, uh, on some of them. But yeah, this is coming in just under five, but this is very 80s.

So it's, it's overblown.

Chris: They did cut their singles down though, they've got, they've got like radio edits, yeah, it's quite a bit shorter. Um, the 5th track, When Love is Good, god damn this has a mad drum sound and honours a reverb in it, go to your cell for that one. Um,

again, I like the guitar line in this but I really don't like the guitar tone in this. It sounds like a Stratocaster that's set to the bridge pickup and it's just too weedy. There are a couple of nice wee guitar moments and some [01:02:00] really nice wee descents in particular but I don't know. And it just, it feels like, it feels like an album track, this one to me.

Mark Fraser: The chorus is maximum yacht rock, man. The

falsetto is really what gives it that hollow nose vibe, for me. This is,

Chris: this is exactly the dividing line between a lot, like, Craig and I agree on a lot of big 80s pop in particular, but he is definitely a yacht rock advocate, and I am definitely not.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't call this yacht rock at all.

I think, I think, I think that's an unfair [01:03:00] term. For a band like this because like is it the softness that makes it yacht rock for you? Is it the harmonies?

Chris: It's the chord changes as well, man Like they go in the like kind of diminished kind of like almost like, you know, suss this kind of jazzy kind of Yes,

Mark Fraser: I was gonna say it's about meek I think in places which is what gives me the yacht rock vibes and the guitar tones And the way they're produced and sort of in the mix, you know, cause there is some hair metal guitar shit going on there quite often, but it's, it's, it's submerged in the way that, but then they also do use the kind of almost funky sort of upstroke kind of thing, which was a total New York rock thing.

Chris: Uh, didn't I read you right, the 6th track.

I really like the drama of the intro in that one. It's just [01:04:00] so evocative and utterly retro. It starts brilliantly. It's another one with a cool guitar line that I think is just too weedy because of the instrument that they're using.

It reminded me actually quite a bit of Rio. the song in that spanky way when I think the whole track could have been a lot more rock and less spanky. And by the way, how about that? Say goodbye. Ah, so good. He's a good singer. He is a good singer.

Good voice.[01:05:00]

Mark Fraser: The vocals in this are the best part man, and there's like ethereal backing vocals in the chorus as well, which really help lift his voice. And there's a lot of staccato guitar parts that darken out the vocals in the verses. I like it when they do that, they don't do that often enough to be honest. But I've also written here there's ample helping of white boy, white boy york, york.

Rock, funk, that's hard to say man, that was a hard, that was a hard,

Chris: that was a fucking car crash that.

Mark Fraser: White boy yacht funk rock. It's a hard thing to say. Almost got it, almost, let's just fucking move on. Yeah, white boy yacht funk rock, that's exactly what it gives me in places.

Crag Carrick: It's funny, uh, if, uh, anyone listening, uh, wants to look up what Paul Engerman looks like.

It

Chris: looks the way he sounds.

Crag Carrick: He's quite the specimen, I'll say. Tall, blonde and handsome or whatever kind of thing. Leather pants kind of vibe. I didn't really think about the Yacht Rock thing until you brought that up. [01:06:00] But I guess I beat you round the head with it.

Chris: So, 7th track, Fall Apart, Golden Heart.

Nice, nice title actually, I quite like

Music: that one. Um,

Chris: one of the more identifiable tunes on here, but it's actually got a lower play count than most, and Honestly, I think that's because people are getting, listeners to the album are getting a little bit fatigued. Now I don't mean the hardcore folk, I mean the people that really like the band are all in at this point and I don't think this track's weaker than, well I said I don't think it's weaker than most on here, it's pretty decent, but I do think that if you're not hugely into the band then this is the point where you start to fall off and you can kind of see it in the play counts.[01:07:00]

Music: The

Chris: chorus works in this one but I think it's just a little bit low key, which And again to sort of creep towards the conclusion of my theory behind this makes me think about her take on love is a battlefield. She seems to think that slow and moody is better and I feel like some of these tracks could have been more energetic and that would have made them more gripping.

Maybe like BPMs and delivery, maybe even the key that they're in because this one is just feels More subdued than it should be.

Crag Carrick: So think about it. She'll be writing on the piano mostly or keys As we all know when you when you do play the piano It always sounds nicer when it is a bit slower and a bit more subdued and you can't almost imagine What a band is gonna do with that Speeding up the BPM and adding guitars and all that kind of thing.

I've written songs in the past where just on the piano with three chords and then it's went to someone else [01:08:00] and it's went, doesn't sound anything like what I wanted. Yeah, that probably speaks a lot to her opinions on these songs.

Mark Fraser: I think I like the drums in this song particularly and there's some fantastic keyboard sounds at the end with the play over the guitar solo which is like the outro of the song which I really enjoyed

and but yes another mid paced number they they kind of go for one quicker one mid paced is kind of the way the record is for the most part sequenced. And yeah, I do actually. I hadn't really thought about that, Chris, but people perhaps are getting a bit fatigued because it's getting quite samey by this point.

Still well written and well played, like, but it's, you know, it's getting a bit samey.

Crag Carrick: The sequencing here in Australia online here is different from, uh, how it is for you. Uh, Fall Apart Golden Hearts track [01:09:00] eight for me. And it's true. Okay. Oh yeah. Sorry. I'm wrong. Punches.

Chris: Track six for us. No, track seven for me, for me.

Yeah. Um, anyway, track eight here, uh, I've got no room for your love. That's what I have anyway.

Big FM synth bass lines that are really juicy. I love that tone.

This one is the lowest played and yet for me, easily one of the best tracks here. Uh, you don't have, I've got no room for your love. Yep. [01:10:00] Don't have it. Well, you're missing it. You're missing out, mate, because it's, it's the lowest played on Spotify in the, in the UK, and it's one of the best tunes here.

Crag Carrick: Again, I suspect it a lot. Sorry, sorry, it's track

Chris: five. Yeah, yeah, I do have it. Right, okay, okay. But yeah, it's track five. Right, okay, well, totally different. And it is excellent.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, yeah,

Chris: I agree. I suspect that many folk, again, feel undrained. switched off during the slow verse that brings the song in and didn't even wait around to discover that the chorus just jumps up a gear big time.

Um, I think this track suffers certainly on this release then it suffers from being landed way back here at number eight.

Mark Fraser: Yeah, the chorus is the thing that really lifts it for sure. I wasn't expecting it to take that left turn and it takes it pretty hard like and it builds to what I would imagine is their kind of version of a freak out outro because it is quite [01:11:00] pacey.

I could totally imagine that in the breakfast club or something like that.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, it's an amazing song, uh, especially that chorus as well. And it's very much like the, uh, the band we were talking about, Animotion.

Chris: Interesting to hear that it's got that different track order, man, because I mean, you would imagine the Australian release came out after the US release, uh, and therefore I'm tempted to think that maybe other people have said the same thing, like this tune's too strong to be back here.

People are missing it. And then that's why it's maybe been bumped from eight up to five, which feels like where it should be, you know, like a strong track like this kind of holding up the middle of the record. But yeah, I just feel like

Crag Carrick: it feels perfect five for me after after tough and tender. So yeah, you've obviously got a

Chris: different version than I have.

So the ninth one for us anyway, is who's on the line, which was the fourth single.[01:12:00]

Um, that's track three on my end. Okay, well, six minutes, laid back loungy affair, not actually what I expected. There's loads of sparkly descending synths that are actually sonically like, in terms of the tones, a bit like that track Waiting for a Start at Fall, uh, by Boy Meets Girl. Um, the chorus is memorable but the whole thing is so laggy and plodding.

This is another one that I think would surely have benefitted from some of that Benatar tempo treatment. You know, this is how, you know, Night wanted it, but I'm like, I think there's a better song here if the delivery was different. Um, it's probably my least favourite on this entire record. For me, it's just a big schmaltzy 80s donkey of a track and it, it's, it just could have been better.[01:13:00]

Mark Fraser: Yeah, it does have that laid back vibe, it's almost ballady in it's approach I think, but it's not fully a ballad, it does have a bit of the head nodding to it. There's some fun use of the lindrum in this, especially in the guitar break.

In that guitar break, the guitar has so much reverb and delay. It sounds like it's coming in from space, um, I like that the most, I think, in this song. The song itself kind of didn't really grab me apart from that bit towards the end.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, for me it's uh, it's definitely an album track, and yeah. Except it was a single though, that's the thing, it's not an album track, it was their fourth single.

It didn't chart at all, um, because of all the reasons you mentioned. Yeah, it's a weird choice looking at my tracklist here that being track free. I guess the decision around that would have been all right, we'll get that out of the [01:14:00] way. You know,

Chris: it's slow things down. It's the kind of, uh, come as you are or nevermind.

That kind of third track slow the pace down after a couple of big ones. Uh, and then it finishes. For us anyway, we're number 10, Sandstone, Cobwebs and Dust.

Which I think is one of the strongest starts. It's got a hint of, you know, that song Turning Japanese. and the guitars. It's faster, it's more dynamic, it's more energetic.

Rather than being a huge climax, I just think it feels quite abandoned though, [01:15:00] way back here at the end of the record. The prepare to meet your maker chorus, I think is really good and very, very easy. In fact, I think it genuinely could be the best chorus on the record. I sound really contrarian, but for me, this could be the best tune on the record on again.

I do just wish they'd done it five BPM faster and committed to this being a banger, but I think it's really strong. I just don't think it's done any justice back where it is. Is that number 10 for you as well, Craig?

Crag Carrick: That is number 10. Yeah, yeah. and nice synergy to this song. I wouldn't say it's the best on the record, but I think people have to get to the end of the record to to hear this and that might have been a kind of strategic decision as well.

Um, yeah, I don't think it pays

Chris: off though. To put a great song like that at the end. It's like, no, you're not, you're not really,

Crag Carrick: but I

Chris: don't know. That's the cocaine talking, you know,

Mark Fraser: we're going to show

Crag Carrick: that

Mark Fraser: I could see that I could see the pro men doing a really good session of this actually.

Crag Carrick: Yeah.

Mark Fraser: It's kind of [01:16:00] weird to have an upbeat ending to the record as well.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, that's what I was saying about the decision to put it at the end of the record. Because normally people put the ballads at the end of the record, you know? Like the last song will be a slow drive.

Chris: Even if you do finish with a strong song at the end of a record though, it kind of has to be earned. I don't think the track's leading up to it.

sustain the record enough for people to get to the end. Do you know what I mean? It's like, I think when your record is like that, you have to wind down. But anyway, what the fuck? We're talking

Crag Carrick: about days of actual records though, as well. So it's like, you know, you're having to turn it over and start again and all that kind of thing as well.

So there would have been a conversation in the studio saying like, how are we going to sequence this? And we're going to end up ending a banger.

Chris: So, Craig, allow me to put together my conclusion here. First of all, I do want to say, and this might be kind of patronising, it's unavoidable, but, so I apologise in advance, but I watched the, uh, Hanging on a Heart Attack video.

You've seen that? Yeah, yeah. Right, so, usual tropes [01:17:00] in a band, right? guy writers, guy band, there'll maybe be a woman in keys in the background or you know, you maybe have that kind of addicted to love style thing going on. It's nothing like that, you know, and that video you see Holly Knight, she's having a fucking whale of a time.

She looks great. They all look great. Um, but she was the engine room. She was the brains. She was basically 90 percent of this whole fucking project, which is just so fucking cool because it's such a flip of the other bands of that era. And She also really genuinely did right absolutely enduring pop classics.

They weren't necessarily for this band, but she did write them unlike far, far, far more famous people these days who obviously lie about doing so. So I really, I hugely admire her just haven't been forced to go and learn about her and stuff. She's just very engaging to watch her speak. Watching a woman be in charge of an 80s kind of rock project like this is just a fucking relief in a, in a way, you know, given all the fucking shite that went on back there.

As a record, [01:18:00] it is fun, but it's definitely not one of my favourites. It's no rock set, it's no Duran Duran in terms of like the overall highs, but it is fairly consistent throughout, which is actually something that those bands often weren't. I'll be I don't think it ever really gets above a six out of ten as we this is my theory here as we kind of see from the take on love is a battlefield.

I think her compositions, which are often very, very good work better when they're approached with a fresh perspective. She's great start material, but I think her instincts for delivery are not I don't think necessarily in keeping with the record buying public device didn't do all that well, but there are still good songs in there.

You can hear them. There are good ideas that are good moments. And when you listen to her do a version of love is a battlefield, it's very forgettable and it's almost forgettable enough to. to make you forget that, like, Jesus Christ, there's a version of song that is like an [01:19:00] absolute all time fucking builder.

And I just sort of maybe apply that to the stuff that she's written on this, which is these are good but forgettable, much like her version of Love is a Battlefield. And I wonder what would have happened had these songs been taken over by a production team and an artist, not necessarily Pat Benatar, but somebody like that who Amped them up a bit, sped them up a bit, leaned into the strengths.

I don't know if she can be objective enough to tell what the strengths are in her songs, but clearly other people could, as we saw with Tina Turner and more. So yeah, I feel like we were saying that she maybe kept these songs back for herself, because, you know, for whatever reason. I think that's a little bit of a shame, actually.

I would have liked to have these songs done by other people to see if, in fact, there were more tunes that were every bit as potentially brilliant as Love is a Battlefield just hiding in there, but we'll never know because all we can do is listen to them like this and be like, ah, quite good, and that's it.

Mark Fraser: Kind of mostly agree with you, I think. [01:20:00] I thought the record was fine, I'd probably say about a 6 as well. I found it kind of, the overwhelming feeling I got from it though, is that there's a lot, a lot of stuff that's like this, just really mid paced MOR rock and yacht rock that was floating about in the 80s, and this record is very much of the same ilk.

You know, she's clearly a very talented songwriter and a very talented musician. It feels as though in this record she's writing in a mode, which was just what was on the radio at the time, a lot of the forgettable shit that we don't talk about anymore, you know, and it feels like it's just, basically what I'm saying is that you can kind of tell she was in a system, right, she was in the system of writing for other people and being involved in these massive sort of entrepreneurial records that are made by committee, right, and a lot of these songs feel as though they were made for those kind of records.

And yeah, I think there are exceptions of where some of our songs have been elevated. I mean, you've spoken about them, you know, the best, you know, loves the battlefield, that kind of thing. So I do tend to agree with the fact that our instinct, our instinct probably was what's happening on the [01:21:00] radio at the time, but I don't think our instinct necessarily, I don't think that instinct necessarily resulted in creating all time great songs.

Does that make sense on this record?

Music: Yeah.

Mark Fraser: She's very capable, clearly very capable and as a bit of a legend and should be more, should be better remembered for the stuff that she's done. Yeah. I just, there's a reason that this record isn't that.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, for me, um, this is one of those records. So the reason I brought it to Unsung is because nobody's ever heard of it.

But for me, it's one of those records and this is, this is probably to your points, uh, where I can just put it on start to finish and I'm quite happy. Because it is kinda MOR I guess, uh, but MOR in an 80s sense and something that I really enjoy. My proclivities, uh, just, you know, listen to it from start to finish and it just, uh, ticks the boxes.

I'm happy to have it on in the background. So it's a good album to listen to. Probably not one to be dissed. Deep dived [01:22:00] into, but it's a, it's a, it's a really great piece of work, I think. And yeah, we did

Chris: deep dive in it.

Crag Carrick: Yeah. Yeah. I'm talking about a lesson dear listener right there. But, uh, yeah, it's

Chris: not a fuck it.

We've done it. You need to do it as well.

Crag Carrick: Yeah. Yeah. It's worth, worth giving a good old spin when you're doing the dishes or whatever. It's, uh, you can get it online and you can get it on YouTube and Spotify and all that kind of thing. But it's an eighties wonder to me. Uh, it just takes my boxes as I say, you know?

Um, I'm not getting into, uh, Stratocaster tones and things like that. Yeah, sorry. I'll leave that. I'll leave that to the pedants. Um, but yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a fun hang no matter what order it's in. I think it's really

Chris: entertaining. It's a good suggestion and Absolutely. Like, I'm really glad that the characters in this story, we got a chance to talk about them and shine a bit more light on them for our listeners because I think it's a really compelling cast of characters and stuff as well.

I mean, I would say that

Mark Fraser: to your point there, Craig, people should definitely give it a [01:23:00] listen. If the kind of things that that we've spoken about. If you really dig like, you know, that kind of MOR stuff from the 80s and lord knows people do because there's still people that play it now. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. Then it's definitely not as well as

Chris: this as well. That's the thing, like this was the heyday and even though this is like mid table, as I said, for that era, it's a fucking lot better than a lot of the stuff that people bring it now trying to emulate it. And people aren't playing it either.

Mark Fraser: I'm glad we did this record.

I'm glad we've been able, like Chris said, been able to these characters. I do think that this is actually a really Textbook case of unsung, whether or not, yeah, whether or not we agree that it is a good record is kind of largely irrelevant in this story, right? Because it is an unsung record. It

Crag Carrick: unsung is.

Mark Fraser: Mm-Hmm. You know,

Chris: Well, yeah. I mean, uh, I, I meant it, I think there's a couple of tracks in it that I will actually add to playlists, but not the album itself. Mm-Hmm.

Mark Fraser: I just, it's a great story. You know, it's a sad story, I guess, as well, in some ways, even though they did go on to do other things. She seems [01:24:00] all right.

They're all fine. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe not the singer. It's fucking a level marketing scheme, but

Chris: you're not see if I do anything even close to being as good as push it to the limit for the rest of my life. It'll all been worth it. Um, right. Okay. One more order of business folks. It's the Nexus,

Music: nexus, nexus. Nexus, nexus Nex.

A complicated series of connections

Chris: between

different

Chris: things. And just as pure timing would have it, the nexus that we drew out the tub last time was Debbie McGee, courtesy of our very own Craig, who's now on here to fucking reap the rewards of his own mischief. [01:25:00] So, Craig, you landed yourself in it, mate.

You've got to get from device to Debbie McGee and you're also obliged to go first.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, and I haven't actually, because you caught me an error short, uh, I haven't actually done it. I haven't done that. I've got some, uh, some chicken scratches here. The dog eats homework, Mark. So, it goes, it goes,

Chris: no, no, I'll give it a go, I'll give it a go.

The dog's lying in the background there full of homework, I can see it.

Crag Carrick: I can, I'll give it a go. So we have to go from device, yeah? To, yeah. Uh, Debbie McGee,

Chris: the lovely

Crag Carrick: Debbie

Chris: McGee. Debbie, uh, just for everybody that doesn't know who that is, Debbie McGee was a sort of TV personality. She was the, the magician's assistant and partner of the magician, the guy called Paul Daniels British magician who died in 2016, I think.

Crag Carrick: Yeah. Mm-Hmm. , very famous guy. And, uh, yeah. I went down so many rabbit holes, which I'm sure that you guys will have done in your nexus, but my chicken scratches here were, uh, Dev1ce had Paul [01:26:00] Hegeman in it, and, uh, Eng Eng Engaman? Engaman? Yeah, yeah. and he played in a band called Animo with the actress, dancer and singer, Cynthia Rhodes, the wife, uh, former wife of Richard Marks.

Uh, she starred as Penny in the movie Dirty Dancing. And in the movie Dirty Dancing, the titular character baby, uh, Jennifer Gray is being sawn in half at the summer Camp Kellerman's, very similar to the. Royal Variety Shows and Summer Camps that Paul Daniels and Debbie McGee would do, being a magician's assistant.

That's

Chris: acceptable. Sorry, that was rubbish. Yeah, no, I think, I think that can be allowed in the circumstances. Mark, you wanna go next?

Mark Fraser: Uh, mine's just quite short as well. Um, so, Holly Knight found our keyboard player back in Vocalist Base, pretty much did everything in this band for device. Anyway, as you've spoken about, she co wrote the best for Bonnie Tyler and then Tina [01:27:00] Turner.

And as you've also spoken about, Chris, it is a song that is often associated with, uh, Rangers. The Rangers football club. Clearly the best. Many notable, uh, ex Rangers players. I've either been a manager for or played for Blackburn Rovers as a rangers to Blackburn Rovers Pipeline, apparently, that includes, uh, people at Barry Ferguson and Graeme Soonness who actually managed them amongst others.

Another person who managed Blackburn and who was actually a player for Celtic was Paul Lambert. Um, another one was Kenny Dalgleish

Chris: as well.

Mark Fraser: Yeah, it's true. Um, but that's, this one overlaps with the next part of my nexus, which is why it's right here. Um, so. So. He used to be a Celtic player, who obviously are huge rivals of Rangers, but um, from his reign at Blackburn was less than six months.

From November 2015 to March 2016, he managed the club. And whilst he was there, one of the players that he was managing was a chap called Chris Brown. Not, not that Chris Brown. Chris Brown's kind of infamous at Blackburn. He was a defensive forward and he was [01:28:00] with the club for two years, 2014 and 2016. And he played 37 games and failed to score a single goal for the club.

Chris: That's probably because he was defensive forward, like what the fuck is that? What

Mark Fraser: the fuck is that, I dunno. He actually began his professional career at Sunderland, but in his first season he was loaned to Doncaster Rovers, and a big Doncaster Rovers fan season ticket holder was Paul Daniels, who was the husband of Debbie McGee.

Chris: Wow. Okay.

Mark Fraser: Right.

Chris: So

Crag Carrick: I know where this is going already.

Chris: Holly Knight wrote two singles for Elvira Elvira Mistress of the Dark, including a track called the Bride of Frankenstein from the Monster Hits album.

She was actually good friends with Cassandra Peterson who played Elvira. By the way, the lyrics to that tune Were written by Fred Schneider of the B 50 twos. So, oh, I was [01:29:00] going to go the kinda nuclear wets route because B 50 twos are what they used to use to transport nuclear warheads and stuff like that.

But anyway, stay tuned.

Mark Fraser: So, uh, so you sing the lyrics to that song and the, the voice of Fred Schneider.

Music: I remember

Mark Fraser: now. I can't

Chris: actually the lyrics, but I know the voice so. Holly had said that she got into that Elvira project partly because she grew up being a huge fan of like gothy horror TV shows like The Munsters and The Addams Family.

The Addams Family, by the way, which obviously featured Uncle Fester. Uncle Fester is the nickname of the controversial chemist and writer Stephen Priestler, whose books explain how to make things like meth, LSD, more efficient bullets, explosives, and even nerve gas in a book called Silent Death. He boasts about how the authorities are always after him and he actually wore like a red devil costume when Vice News went and did a special on him.

But also, I just had to add this, one of his most common beefs is that people keep violating his copyright. I mean, the guy, the guy shows you how to make fucking [01:30:00] nerve gas in your house, like Basically, an Uncle Fester has become like shorthand for somebody that gives away secrets on how to conduct domestic terrorism as a result of this fucking guy, you know, because Fester and the Adams family was always blowing stuff up anyway, and he's upset about fucking copyright.

I mean, Jesus fucking Christ. Anyway. That silent death book that he wrote was discovered in the possession of the Alm Shinrikyo scientists responsible for the Tokyo subway sarin attacks that killed 13 and affected something like 6, 000 people. An even greater demonstration of the astonishing danger of sarin was when Iraq dropped 600 tons of it during their war with Iran, killed 5, 000 people at least and injured over 100, 000.

And that's just sarin, they dropped a lot of other chemical weapons during that conflict as well. One of the many reasons that Iraq invaded Iran, uh, in September 1980 to start that conflict was because they feared that the Iranian revolution would destabilize their own internal power balance between Shia and Sunni [01:31:00] Muslims, because Iraq was, you know, ostensibly secular, uh, unlike Iran, which was, uh, became ruled by the Shias.

Because the Iranian revolution, uh, actually ended. Debbie McGee's ballet career, which is not a sentence I expected to take this week. Um, Debbie McGee had graduated from the Royal Ballet School in London, and for some reason she ended up joining the Iranian National Ballet Company based in Tehran or Tehran.

I don't know how to say it properly. Prior to the ousting of the Shah and the arrival of that fucking Stone Age bunch of theocrats and women haters that became the Islamic Republic of Iran, she was 19. When the revolution took place at that ballet school in Tehran, and she was forced to flee the country with almost none of her possessions or money because she was in so much danger because, you know, regardless of the many failings of the Shah, the revolution was a fucking huge step backwards in time.

So yeah, the Iranian revolution was what basically got Debbie McGee into [01:32:00] being a magician's assistant.

Mark Fraser: Wow, hell of a length there.

Crag Carrick: I knew you were going there. I was like, I was going down the, down the rabbit hole and I was like, uh, oh, this is, this is Cusack territory. Yeah, it

Chris: is indeed. I was worried you were going to spoil it for me, but thanks, I appreciate it.

Yeah, yeah, I just knew you

Crag Carrick: were

Chris: on it. So, uh, yeah, device. Thanks, Craig. That was a good suggestion, man.

Crag Carrick: Yeah, nice one. Yeah, it was good. Just a little curio, or whatever you want to call it. Uh, a little time capsule, as you say. Yeah, yeah, it's uh, yeah, and it's, it's a good hang. Like I say, stick it on in the background and it's a bit of a head bobbing.

While we're doing 45 minutes worth

Chris: of dishes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, Mark, do we have a, a guest next week? We do, yeah. That's it. You don't get to find out who

Mark Fraser: it

is. Who you gotta

Mark Fraser: tell you about. You gotta miss it, yes. Jan Alkema from The Drum has been on the chat, on the podcast before but he's not talking about The Drum this time.

He's gonna talk about his first band, Compulsion. Compulsion,

Chris: who, yeah, I got to [01:33:00] mention when he was on but we Basically he's been teasing us with all these juicy anecdotes from his time in compulsion that include all kinds of famous bands and I'm just choking to get the dirt so that people are like you fucking hear that thing about that band that was on that podcast so we're bringing you on to talk about compulsion but a really formative band and kind of brick rock circles of the early mid nineties.

Back to the nineties boys, back to the nineties where we seem to be chiseled now. Um, yeah, so we'll be back with that again. Go to the patrion, patrion. com forward slash unsung pod and subscribe at the low tier. Only, uh, what is it? One fraction of an Australian beer. We can't really work out the conversion rate here.

Four pounds a month. four pounds a month and you help keep us in business. If you want to go to the musk tier, you can go for 15 and you will buy yourself an album from an independent artist, uh, that we saw every month, every month, every month that we source [01:34:00] directly from those artists. So they get money, we get money and you get a nice present.

So please, please, go and support us, we could really do with it. We just bought a bunch of kit, because we're going to start doing video stuff, and the coffers are frankly empty, so help us out.

Mark Fraser: Yeah, we look forward to maybe seeing you next week, or maybe you seeing us next week. Oh God, I

Chris: perished

Mark Fraser: the thought.

Chris: Craig, look after yourself. Good luck today. You've got a big day ahead. You're opening a brewery. Is that

Crag Carrick: right? Yeah, well that's uh, tomorrow. I have a radio show to do in an hour and a half. It's Australian Music Week here. So I have an Australian musician coming on. And uh, we're gonna talk all things Australian music.

If you wanted to stream that. What's the show? Uh, Manyfm. net and the show is called Someplace Somewhere. Alumni includes Mr. Christopher Cusack, who did a two parter. That was a beast. Yeah, yeah, that was a good one as well. I've replayed that as well. [01:35:00] Uh, but yeah, so, uh, I'm gonna get a bit of an education on Australian music today.

Yeah, looking forward to it. I've been up since 2am so,

Chris: and then I'm going to Melbourne. My god man, like, I hope you're alright. Thanks for doing this, really appreciate it man. Good luck with the brewery thing as well tomorrow. Yeah, nae bother. Bigger than Ben Hur, as they say. All the best guys, take care.

Take care, see ya.